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This topic contains 40 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  WEB WEAVER 10 years, 3 months ago. This post has been viewed 2834 times

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  • #10092

    Frank
    Participant

    Fascinating stuff and a great post. In 1986, three years before his death, I imagine Laing’s case contained one or more bottles of scotch, copious amounts of weed and sufficient cash to sustain him given his financial position. Robert's account illustrates a fairly mild encounter with Laing in decline. During the final years his behaviour in public became quite erratic, of necessity to raise funds, often disgraceful he would be quite drunk and abusive. Quite a pitiful sight and stark contrast to the charismatic brilliance of a decade or two earlier. During the 60's and 70's Laing would be driven by limousine to clients, dressed in sharp suits, treated like a rock star and command huge fees. Phil Stokes’ excitement and expectation that Laing was coming to Plymouth coupled with the possibility of Robert working with him were sadly doomed. Expectations made of Laing and him trying to meet them were his undoing, I would suggest the turning point was from say 1974 onwards. None of this should distract from his achievements. Here we are then with four characters in our Lenkiewicz laboratory; lenkiewicz_181201_body.jpg rdlaing.jpg 21998.jpg michael_crawford.jpgAnd some good observations to deal with;

    • Tallis 'physiological' vs Lenkiewicz 'physiological’
    • Tallis ‘Love as illness’ vs Lenkiewicz ‘Love’ is it an illness?
    • Laing and Lenkiewicz are they on the same page or not?
    • Frank vs Frank, Genius or Comic?

    And for the trivia buffs I can offer a quick question;How many of Robert’s paintings, aesthetic notes, drawings or ideas did Frank Tallis use during his presentation at the NPG; (a) None(b) Seven(c) Nine(d) Thirteen

    #10093

    marlowe
    Participant

    And some good observations to deal with;

    • Tallis 'physiological' vs Lenkiewicz 'physiological’
    • Tallis ‘Love as illness’ vs Lenkiewicz ‘Love’ is it an illness?
    • Laing and Lenkiewicz are they on the same page or not?
    • Frank vs Frank, Genius or Comic?

    And for the trivia buffs I can offer a quick question;How many of Robert’s paintings, aesthetic notes, drawings or ideas did Frank Tallis use during his presentation at the NPG; (a) None(b) Seven(c) Nine(d) Thirteen

    Why would Tallis need to use illustrations of paintings when from the text on th website he was talking only about ROL's theories on human behaviour? And surely he wasn't there to agree with Lenkiewicz but to give the clinical psychologist's view of his ideas?

    #10094

    WEB WEAVER
    Participant

    To be fair to Frank Tallis, he was probably approached by TLF to give the talk. The talk was presumably

    #10095

    Frank
    Participant

    Amazing, ok let’s do the trivia first.The answer is none. The reason being that Frank’s presentation is a straight synopsis of his book "Love Sick", his paper carries the same title. Lenkiewicz is mentioned only twice in the fifteen pages of notation read word for word like a script to an expectant audience.

    #10096

    marlowe
    Participant

    Dr Frank Tallis is a clinical psychologist, I think the profession largely bogus and lacking basis, in rank order I place psychiatrists and psychologists just above tarot card readers, but that doesn’t distract me from giving Frank a fair ride in this forum.

    I'm sure he'll sleep better for knowing that. But back to the question you didn't answer:

    I would agree with anyone who argued that Frank Tallis and ROL share nothing and that he is way off the mark when he suggests;“Robert Lenkiewicz expressed the view that love could be likened to an obsessional, addictive state, rooted in an underlying physiology” Robert did not root ‘Love’ in physiology.

    other than ROL, "It's the twentieth project and the culmination of them all. It's an attempt to put together as solidly as possible all the ideas that run through the other projects as a common denominator: that is, to consider the physiological basis of belief systems - particularly those that lead to obsessive or fanatical behaviour. It seems to me that in studying addictive behaviour attention can be drawn to physiological issues. There are ten themes, the central one being the 'falling in love' scenario"...I see no evidence that alcohol or drug abuse is any different from falling in love or acquiring a theological conviction."Or have you got a quote that says any different?

    We're still waiting.

    #10097

    WEB WEAVER
    Participant

    There are not many Lenkiewicz experts out there. Most have served or are serving on the board of TLF. Others have produced ROL books/DVD/prints. Some have done both.

    #10098

    old friend
    Participant

    Questions for all who have an interest beyond the benile. Or maybe it`s a benile question. Was Robert a natural philosopher,continuing the enquiries left behind with the arrival of Francis Bacon and the advancement of scientific analysis? Did he discover another line of enquiry that was less linear and included dare I say it the spiritual? I always feel there is a depth of awareness that transends the usual grasp of reality with Roberts work and oratory. Helpful comments much appreciated. Love non obsessive to all.

    #10099

    art3366
    Participant

    marlowe, are you aware that Frank is our old mate KEVIN under a new pseudonym? Francis always enjoyed sparring with him because he said KEVIN nearly always got it wrong. A kind of devil's advocate I suppose. Tallis was invited to speak because there is synergy between his thinking a Robert's on the question of Love. We know that, Frank knew that, Robert would have known it, that's if he didn't already know before he died.What is very clear is that "Love as an illness",

    #10100

    marlowe
    Participant

    marlowe, are you aware that Frank is our old mate KEVIN under a new pseudonym?

    Thanks, art 3366, it certainly looked familiar! That'll explain why he dodges awkward questions.

    #10101

    art3366
    Participant

    Indeed.for example, he still hasn't told us if he ever met or knew Robert Lenkiewicz.

    #10102

    Frank
    Participant

    I’m sure it’s not lost on John Lenkiewicz that Carl Jung thought tarot cards were very illuminating, as did Robert. The major arcana starts with the Fool or beggar. Is it a coincidence that fool symbolism features in tarot, vagrancy, some of Roberts paintings or the name of a gallery he opened? – I think not, I think fools are important and would encourage ‘art3366’ to post more than he does.Frank Tallis was invited to the NPG in order to discuss the context of Robert’s views on the physiological nature of 'Love' – that was his remit.Robert recorded physiological observations in his work and notes, for him the term ‘physiological’ was a reference to the sensations he encountered and expected others to encounter whilst immersed in an obsessive, addictive activity, in this case ‘Love’. An example can be seen in one of the forbidden art works from the legacy;[img]http://www.lenkiewicz.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=937.0;attach=157;image[/img]Those yellow flames emanating from Roberts arse (sorry couldn’t resist) are not evidence of post coital combustion, neither are the fancy colour schemes evidence of poor observation – These are physiological observations.Frank Tallis would regard Roberts’s observations as mere ‘symptoms’. For Frank the physiology of ‘Love’ can be measured in serotonin levels or brain activity.Given that Robert didn’t (to my knowledge) subject his sitters to blood tests or house an MRI scanner in the studio I think we can safely conclude that Robert and Frank Tallis are on a different page when it comes to physiological observation or measurement. This is important because for Frank ‘Love’ can be explained away as a biological necessity limited by birth canal dimensions, for Robert we take a different path into an Aesthetic matrix. Frank thinks there are two variants of ‘Love’, I suggest if you listen real hard you can hear Robert laughing to himself.So when Frank opens with;“Robert Lenkiewicz expressed the view that love could be likened to an obsessional, addictive state, rooted in an underlying physiology. He was not a scientist and reached this understanding intuitively. But was he right? In the following, I’ll be considering the scientific evidence ...”I can safely say that Frank does not understand Lenkiewicz’s take on physiology and was referring to his own brand, not Roberts take on it. Any takers on this statement;

    • Tallis ‘Love as illness’ vs Lenkiewicz ‘Love’ is it an illness?

    #10103

    marlowe
    Participant

    Frank Tallis was invited to the NPG in order to discuss the context of Robert’s views on the physiological nature of 'Love' – that was his remit.

    How do you know that? It makes more sense to me that Tallis wasn't there to agree with Lenkiewicz but to offer the biological view of it as a clinical psychologist.

    For Frank the physiology of ‘Love’ can be measured in serotonin levels or brain activity.Given that Robert didn’t (to my knowledge) subject his sitters to blood tests or house an MRI scanner in the studio I think we can safely conclude that Robert and Frank Tallis are on a different page when it comes to physiological observation or measurement.

    From 'R O Lenkiewicz':

    Anything can increase dopamine in the brain and bring about a high of some sort. Some things do it in extreme form and some do it placidly. I see no evidence that suggests that alcohol or drug abuse is any different from falling in love or acquiring a theological conviction. I think the physiology of it is identical, though the social and political aspects certainly do vary. There is only addictive behaviour and one is simply along the spectrum of possible alternatives.

    It seems to me Frank you're on the right track but confusing yourself. Maybe it's the change of identity?

    #10104

    Frank
    Participant

    How do you know that?

    • Because I was there and witnessed it.
    • Because Franks notes are word for word as said.
    • Because that’s what Frank said he was going to do and announced that fact on TLF’s website.

    Here is just a glimpse of ‘physiology’ from Roberts perspective covering years of projects. Project 4 “Love and Romance” “...of all kinds. Poetry and Literature has exemplified this physiological phenomenon from ancient times. He thought it interesting that ... unexpected deprivation - grief, jealousy - revealed physiological trauma similar or identical to that experienced by the alcoholic.”“He felt that it might be possible to aesthetically 'measure' the degree of addiction and the degree of withdrawals. He commenced a series of 'Aesthetic Notes' which attempted to record physiological sensation by means of certain colours and certain shapes.”“ Lenkiewicz noted in his research that one of the primary claims made by the 'lover' was that of 'union'. A unique twosome leading to a single unit. This did not seem to be so much a philosophical belief as a physiological need.” “These observations were to lead to a careful investigation of physiological behaviour under crisis.”Project 8 “Jealousy” “He saw the process as purely physiological, and that the loss of certain aesthetic 'packages' can create severe, even lethal deprivations"Perhaps the 'lover' operated with a similar physiology. The visceral sensations experienced by the jealous lover, torment ... intelligence in these matters. Jealousy was a study of physiology in which the power of aesthetics came fully into focus. ..."Project 18 “The Painter with Women”“Lenkiewicz's contention is that our attraction to people, objects, ideas, and belief systems are rooted in a common physiological impulse stemming from an entire aesthetic matrix"Maybe you would be kind enough to show me Roberts paper on the “Effects of dopamine suppression in vagrants” in return.

    #10105

    WEB WEAVER
    Participant

    Alcohol is an interesting addiction as it a depressive. (Although it is not advertised as such). Certainly if it is consumed regularly in the quantities required to become an alcoholic it would be a depressive. A certain category of drug addicts are addicted to "downers" rather than "uppers". So you become chemically dependant to a substance that does not produce an adrenalin rush, something intended to do quite the opposite. You carry on taking it to avoid withdrawl symptoms. You could be in Love, an alcoholic, and a gambler or artist at the same time. A complex cocktail of uppers and downers.Just a thought.

    #10106

    marlowe
    Participant

    How do you know that?

    • Because I was there and witnessed it.
    • Because Franks notes are word for word as said.
    • Because that’s what Frank said he was going to do and announced that fact on TLF’s website.

    You should take off those rose tinted specs Frank. TLF's website actually says this:
    For thousands of years both doctors and poets have espoused the belief that falling in love and mental illness are close cousins, sharing a number of common symptoms. Recent advances in evolutionary psychiatry and neuroscience are consistent with this view. Scientific findings are discussed in the context of Robert Lenkiewicz's speculations on the physiological nature of romantic love.
    If you weren't satisfied, did you question him and say his views had nothing to do with Lenkiewicz?

    Maybe you would be kind enough to show me Roberts paper on the “Effects of dopamine suppression in vagrants” in return.

    By vagrants, like Lenkiewicz you mean alcoholics - who do have low serotonin levels, just like as Tallis says those in love. Do you think that ROL's theories on aesthetic addictions can be scientifically proved or disproved? Do you think that one day a scientist will have a eureka moment and say 'by God, Lenkiewicz was right - we've found that flame and it really is yellow'?

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